I have a suggestion for the application process :

1. Player goes to site.
- At this point, they should not be able to use the application function. Make them create an account and validate it first.
2. They then create an account.
- At this point, they should still not be able to apply. Make them create a character first.
3. Once they have created an account, the login box tells them to create a character, so they create a character.
- Now that they have actually created a character, that is linked to an account, give us the option of letting us use the New Applicant private message system to talk to them further before accepting/denying them. Furthermore, if you want to get serious about it, add a box each time you reply to one of these application posts that allows you to hide this message from the applicant ... thus allowing the officers to talk in the thread to everyone, or just other officers (though I would just plan on creating a large thread for the continued discussion of all applicants with an officer tag).

Furthermore, to work with what you have as the recruitment portion, have the links in the recruitment portion immediately direct them to whichever part of the above process they are on.

If they need to create an account, popup a box that says "You must create an account and a character before you can apply" Click Ok to continue to account creation.

If they need to create a character,popup a box that says "You must create a character before you can apply" Click Ok to continue to character creation.

and finally, when they are able to apply, automatically fill in their MAIN character.

.................

Now, when they login, after applying, they should be able to read and reply to their application message in the forum.

They should not be able to create more characters yet (if that is possible).

If they are rejected, the private message should tell them this.

Once they are accepted, then they can create alts and ask for new ranks ... etc.

.................

As it is now people can jump around all of these steps .. and get themselves confused ... which ends up in us spending our time talking them through the steps they have done to find out what they haven't done ... and it just gets confusing and irritating.

Maybe there is something I am missing, but I think you should be more direct with people when they are applying.

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While I understand where you are coming from and your intent I don't personally agree.
1. I don't want members on my site that don't belong to my guild
2. I don't want characters on my site that don't belong to my guild
3. Follow the above.

This creates a tedious administration nightmare. You are almost taking the account approval process complete out of the picture the way it is today. What you asking for is equivocal to a guest account (very bad for security practices). No where in your process do you state what happens after they are denied. I get where you are coming from but you are creating accounts on the system that don't really need to be there. You are trying to solve a problem that probably could be done a different way.

Rather than having an account then a character be required for someone to apply to your site all you really need to do is something that has been asked for in the past but not done yet.

Require creation of the Main Character when the Account is created. This would solve the dilemma for me where I prefer your account name to be your main characters name as that is what everyone in the guild likely knows you by.

To solve your steps about explaining or walking them through the processes to create an account and character I send this as part of my acceptance letter to them. Explaining to create each and a quick bit on how.

The problem with your proposal and solution is that not everyone will want to do it the same way.

--
Six Demon Bag
Jack Burton: Hey, what more can a guy ask for?
Egg Shen: Oh, a six-demon bag!
Jack Burton: Terrific, a six-demon bag. Sensational. What's in it, Egg?
Egg Shen: Wind, fire, all that kind of thing!

This is key.

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It's all in the reflexes.

I can see that not everyone would want it the same way, but maybe I just don't see why it is possible for people to create a character ... or create an account ... or toss up an application ... without doing any of the other steps.

In no way does the account approval process have to go away. They create an account. At that point you could cut them off until they are approved via what is already there. It is already setup so that you can either force them to wait for approval, or not have approvals for acounts.

It's already setup so you can't create a character before you create an account ... the problem I have is some random person fills out an application ... I know nothing about this person. Maybe he was reffered to me by someone in the guild, or a friend of mine on another server, or from a guild recruitment advertisement. It would be good to have a way to communicate with that person via the website.

Would it at least be possible to set up the application page to only be visible by people with a main character? Could just be a checkbox in the admin panel somewhere.

From there I can probably just setup my own custom HTML page to link from the account page with instructions or something.

EDIT : though it would be really helpful if the applicants could read the application thread as well.

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The 2 way communications about this is the key point that I have thought in the past. The problem is exactly what you mentioned earlier and it would almost require 2 separate posts made for each application. 1 that the applicant could read and one that they couldn't read where you would post your secondary followup questions.

The issue you raise of "not knowing who an applicant is or how they came to your site to do an application" is actually what we use the questions for. Tell us a little bit about yourself. How did you find out about us? Were you referred to us but someone or a post on a recruiting forum? Point blank for us if you answer the questions like a newb or an idiot we would pretty much deny you on the spot. If you have some vague answers or we think you might be worth a shot we contact that person in game. Really important to make sure they really give you the character name correctly.

--
Six Demon Bag
Jack Burton: Hey, what more can a guy ask for?
Egg Shen: Oh, a six-demon bag!
Jack Burton: Terrific, a six-demon bag. Sensational. What's in it, Egg?
Egg Shen: Wind, fire, all that kind of thing!

Chops / Saudorun - is there any news on this as I have the same problem as Saud describes.

DJ - as Saud allready said - you should look more into the questions you ask from your applicants.

To make sure our questions are right I often ask ppl who makes an app on what they think of the questions good / bad / not relevant etc. This will help you in getting your allication form as one that fits your guild.

Also - I made the applications go to a public forum so the applicant can follow the comments we might have for him and replay to these.

If officer or guild chat is required on an app we just make a seperate post in one he can't see. But after all by reviewing his app and a small talk by the CL ingame is usually more then enough for us to say yes or no for a trial invite.

Hope you can use this a bit.

Kind Regards

Misen

The questions are cool and all, but more often times than not, you get a yes or no answer to a question that should warrant a bit more information. I don't think I have read a single application where I haven't sought some sort of clarification for an answer given.

In my opinion, the officers reading the posts are generally going to have a lot of other ways to talk with each other ... private messages, they prolly know each other's email ... and they will probably all (if not most) be on-line in WoW sometime soon, and can discuss it there without having to create an alt on a server somewhere for example, and hope that person is online at that time ... or stop whatever it is they are doing .. raiding, instancing ... to talk to the recruit when he does happen to log on. Officers should be better able to plan their time so that they can have discussions ... so I think the OPTION to allow recruits to use the private application threads would really help.

And, I agree, with the main character thing above ... either that or the server should pull the main character name for threads and such, instead of the account name.

EDIT : Actually I just looked ... and the forum does pull your main character name ... I guess there are other instances where it doesn't? Anyway, you could probably just add the option to force the main character name over the account name for the entire site ... thus it doesn't matter what the account name is, as that won't ever really be displayed.

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I seriously, am still in the process ... of signing someone up ... I have been in this process for thirty minutes. It's one thing to say, maybe this person isn't smart enough ... but It takes at least 15-20 minutes every time I need to sign someone up. I really think you need to look at ways to make the signup system more user friendly.

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So what i am gathering from all this, this underlying problem is you are have problems guiding people through the process and / or people that join your guild and just dont bother to make characters, and if they do your are hounding on them to get it done... and seeing who has and who has not... am i close. Anyway how i do this process is this.

• Person Fills out application.
• Officers Read it, and vote on it
• At that time i have a word document on my desk with a response to the "accepted" i copy what is in the Word Document and paste it in the Notify Applicant... below is what i send them

*****************************************************
Your Application has been accepted. Please do the following Steps:

1. Set up an account on the site using your Main Character as your account name.
2. Next read the "Code of Conduct" (Guild Rules)
3. Finally send me a whisper to let me know that you are done with the above
4. Enjoy the Site, use it to your advantage i.e. Forums, Guild Bank (All Items Are Free), Profession Guides, Class Guide.

Welcome to Universal Order

Shamanistic
GM
*************************************************************

• Next Once thier account is created they have access to a menu box that only has info that will get them started.
• A link to a guide called <Setting up you character the easy way> below is that guide

*************************************************************


After setting up your Account, and getting validated the next thing you are going to want to do is enter all your characters Names.

Then install the following program on your computer...

Installation Instructions

Installation using the Guild Character Installer is fairly straightforward:

• Download the Guild Character Installer file and run it.
• This will install the program onto your hard drive
• NOTE!!! You will have 3 files that end up on your desktop just delete those. those are copies of the install files (you can keep them if ya want but i deleted mine)
• When you run the mod for the first time, it'll download the latest GuildBank mod and install it properly into the WoW folder. No more unzipping files, and copying folders.
• Go to your character in WoW open up thier Bank, Bags, and Character Screen
• When the mod is installed, head to Start > Programs > GuildBankUploader and run the program.
• This will also keep the guild bank items up to date as well
• Use you Login and password that you use to access the website... NOT your WoW login and password

...It's that simple.

****************************************************************

• Ok... almost done now
• Next, after setting up character, per the Wlecome Meassge, they will have to read the code of conduct. While all this is going on they are the rank of Initiate, and while the rank of initiate they have very limited access to the guild site features. In fact they only have access to the stuff they will set them up on the website... ok moving on
• After they read the code of conduct... at the very bottom of the guide is this statement.

****************************************************************

1. Go to your character screen
2. Scroll down and click the <Edit> button
3. On the right of the screen you will see...
• <Attunments, Completed Quests>
4. Check the box the says the following...
• I have read and understand the Code of Conduct
5. Scroll down again and Click Save
6. Congradulations you are completed... ThankYou

*****************************************************************

• Once they have done this, then they are awarded the rank of Private, which open up the site to them, other than officer access and such.
• I went to the Attunement part of the admin screen and added that as an attunement / Key. Now when you look at the roster thier should be a check mark in the column of <Rules> or whatever you decide to abreviate it as, mine is called Code of Conduct so i used CC.

So that is it... i am a person that let the system do the work for you... they have 3 days to get this done... if not Boot.

Sorry so long i hope this help you and anyone else that would like to streamline this process.

Shams






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That is basically what I do. I don't send them the info the way you do, but invariable they can't find link X or forget to do part Y ... then I have to track down which part they missed, or which part they are on and redirect them to the right place. None of this is too overly difficult, but regardless, these people play a game. Their attention span for signing up to a website is often pretty short, and I don't blame them.

The thing that really confuses me though is all of the info that is needed, except for a password, is asked for when they apply. Take the main char name, create a "trial account" that we can approve using that name and the email address they put in, and create that character. When a GM/Officer looks at the site they see Application by player X : 1. Approve Account / 2. Approve Character.

I don't see why it would be hard to create a trial account that only has access to public stuff, and the application thread.

I don't see why it would be a problem to create a character from the information from the application. The application could be beefed up to include proffesions as well.

I mean just look at what you wrote ... thats 15-20 minutes worth of work every time someone applies to your guild. I don't see why it has to be that complicated.

Im sorry if I am whinning ... this process just seems so overly complicated. Everything else works so smoothly.

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Well you could just uncheck the box under the <Admin> menu then click <Website Accouts> then uncheck the box at the top which says, <Authorization Required to create account> this way anyone can just go and create an account without you even knowing about... this would be an easy setup. The reason i have it the way i do, is because, yes it is after all only a game, but it is a game involving other people, and i just dont want anyone in my guild, it is a process to weedout the unwanted cause my guild is my community of people. Beside if you are a raiding guild i would rather want people in my guild that are not lazy and willing to do what it takes to accomplish stuff for the bettment of the guild. The same people that are no longer in our guild are the same ones that complained about the website accounts, having to keep things current on there and so on... the website serves as an awesome tool for the GM, and if people are too lazy to do it, then frankly they will be lazy in game... you know the type... you have seen them around...

"Can i have some gold please"
"Can you run me through SM so i can get the awesome drop in there"

So the website sign up process serves to me as the first line of defense to weedout the lazy and such... i have a small guild in comparison to most, 75 people, but i can tell you that all 75 are top quality people. Anyway probably got a little off the subject here and there, but nonetheless. So this post is of course just all in my opinion. The game and the website are different for each person, some might use it just for the roster guides and forums, some may extend to use all the end game features it provides... and an awesome provider it is... this is by far the best website system that i have seen, i researched for 4 months, and during the 4 months i kept coming back here to take another look and byte for byte it is THE website to use... THANKS CHOPS FOR ALL THE HARD WORK YOU DO.

Shams

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As far as questions go, these are my questions, as to how i have them setup... this will let you know if you have a good well rounded person. We are not doing endgame yet as soon as we do the question will change or i will add more to be geared for the endgame stuffs...

How did you hear about our guild / Who invited you?

We in the guild do offer alot of assistance when needed so What best describes you (Pick more than one)
a. Needs alot of help and assistance
b. Needs help only as last resort
c. Likes to try and figure things out
d. Likes helping others
e. Would rather work alone


What is your age range: under 16, 17-24, 25-35, 35 or older?


Tell us a little bit about yourself, personality and such... no personal information required.


What do you expect from the guild?

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While I haven't commented on this, I am reading it all and giving it all consideration. I appreciate the suggestions.

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It's all in the reflexes.

I appretiate all of the suggestions, but to me, the ability to post an application / create an account / create a character ... has nothing to do with the recruitment process (weeding out people), with the exception possibly of the post an application part, but that is the start of the process. I just feel that all of the added steps are redundant, and don't really serve any purpose that the post an application portion of the process couldn't solve.

Maybe there are security issues, I don't know, but lets face it. If someone wants to hack your site, they will find a way to do it whether they have an "applicant" ranked account or not.

On the flip side, if an account was created when someone posted an application, this would allow us to communicate with them in the application thread. Again, there could be a checkbox for admins to click to make any of the posts they make in those application threads invisible to the applicant.

The character part is the same thing. People goto the site .. fill out an application ... list that they are a level 66 gnome warlock ... your application probably asks about spec (mine will when we are actually recruiting raiders) ... then they have to go fill all of that out again? Not to be a jerk (this is still a lifesaver, and an awesome web system) but redundancy in web design is bad ... especially as I mentioned before, player X would much rather be playing the game than figuring out why the character he posted an application for doesn't exist, and what he has to do to make it exist.

Again, I appretiate the insight on how you do it, but this isn't about how to recruit people, or whether my recruitment methods are good, it is about the funcionality of the application process.

thanks
dj

EDIT : also, the idea of creating a dynamic page to list instructions, and copy and paste instructions here and there ... again this is a great site, but it would be a better site if everyone didn't have to jump through these hoops. Yes that method works ... but I can't help but think there is a better solution.

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So the Registration process got a little bit of this kind of attention. That seems quite a bit more logical.

I still can't help but think that the application should also be tied into this.

I see that it is valuable to have the ability to create an account separate to some degree from the ability to apply to the guild, as often times guild pages are purchased / created with the system, and they already have 100 members ... no need for them to "apply" .. So I think what should happen is, revamp the application process so that when people apply to the guild they create an account, and they create their main character.

Again, this could be an option so that people who do not want accounts created by applicants don't have to have them.

The next thing to do, and this to me is really what I guess I have been digging at all along:

First, when someone applies, create the account, as above. From there it becomes a matter of basically pre-appoving accounts by essentially assigning them a "applicant" rank (lower than dirt) which allows them to view anything that is public. The big thing here for me, is to allow them to see their application thread.

The trick is then creating a way for officers to post in the application threads in a way that hides what they say from the applicant. Personally, this doesnt actually matter to me as I will generally have plenty of other ways to communicate with officers, but I can see how people probably use these application threads to discuss the applicant .. and things like, "George called him a thumb sucking momma's boi and thinks he will make waves ..." probably come up.

So again I suggest that you give anyone who otherwise has access to these application threads (other than the applicant itself) a checkbox that when checked will hide that post from the applicant.

If accounts and characters were created from the application, and the application threads were viewable (and they can respond in those threads) by the applicant, I think you would have a much more powerful system for bringing people into a guild.

I think it is important though that these kinds of things are optional. The same way it is optional to require an officer to approve an account.

And finally, I think that when we get an account request message, and we deny it, the characters created on that account should be deleted right then and there.

Likewise if the application process is revamped, if we deny the applicant (via the application thread the way it is now) the account, and the characters should be deleted.

Thanks!!
Dj

PS .. I've said it before and I will say it again ... I tried to create a site like this. This site is amazing. Great work. I tend to be full of ideas on this stuff, but other than things which I feel would make things "better" I would have nothing but amazing things to say about this site to anyone who asked (or didn't sometimes ^_^).

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Just wanted to pull a snipet from another thread into this one ...

From tkieffer:


I understand where you are coming from, but I think that the system could easily simplify this process as well in that while an ACCOUNT, CHARACTER, and APPLICATION can be created with 1 form, the ACCOUNT, CHARACTER, and APPLICATION can be REJECTED in 1 form. There would be no extra pruning because when you reject the account, it deletes the account and associated character.

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correct me if I am wrong but I think what DJ is getting at is that everything is in Pending Approval and all tied to the application. If the app is accepted then everything gets approved and you don't have to hound the new guild member to create an account and character. If you disapprove the application then everything gets disapproved.

I see DJ's point and this is the only way I would accept and all in 1 app system. If they are all tied to the application for approval. There also however would still need to be a separate way to create an account which should include the first character for hat person since sometimes you will run with someone and invite them to the guild immediately if they are interested.

--
Six Demon Bag
Jack Burton: Hey, what more can a guy ask for?
Egg Shen: Oh, a six-demon bag!
Jack Burton: Terrific, a six-demon bag. Sensational. What's in it, Egg?
Egg Shen: Wind, fire, all that kind of thing!

I have to admit I may not have had that all figured out when I started this post, but I think what Saudorun just said is the best system.

I think you could just tell members that you have already accepted that they don't have to fill out the questions? As that is the only thing that is different, or would be different in this setup, between the account creation and application forms .. and if they don't understand, and end up filling the questions anyway ... well, /meh ^_^



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one last bump =P

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